Hi Dave!
Sorry about the delay gerrin back to you on this. Been bloody busy mate.
deadagaindave wrote:Paul, what exactly is Gavin Edwards saying about the
Panorama Stones, and other prehistoric monuments on Ilkley Moor? When I say EXACTLY, I mean just that. Do you have any ad verbatim quotes of statements made to the press or elsewhere published, by Mr Edwards in this regard? If you do, could you post them on here so that we can scrutinise them.
There's been a few. One was in the Ilkley Gazette paper, July 16, 2004. The report was headed: "Famous markings may be forged?" and the story was as follows:
Internationally renowned prehistoric rock markings may have been forged, it is being claimed. Ilkley's Panorama Stone is known around the world for its distinctive "ladder" motif.
But far from being the work of our prehistoric ancestors the designs are more likely to have been added by a Victorian workman, according to a local expert. Gavin Edwards, Museums Officer, Archaeology, at the Manor House in Ilkley, stumbled across evidence of possible fraud and skulduggery whilst carrying out research into the Panorama Stones.
And now his findings are set to send shock waves around the archaeological community. But even more surprising, in his view, is the fact that the evidence has been in the public domain for almost a century. Mr Edwards believes Victor-ian illustrations and a report in the Ilkley Gazette in 1913 point to the fact that the ladder design considered to be extremely rare prehistoric artwork -- was added to the original, authentic cup and ring markings.
As evidence he produces two Victorian illustrations, one made by an unknown artist probably in the 1860s, and another which appeared in a publication in 1896. Whist the first shows no evidence of the distinctive, rare design, the latter includes the disputed markings.
He says: "Evidence that the marking on the rock might have been altered in Victorian times is provided by a number of contemporary illustrations. These show significant differences, which might be argued to result from artistic licence or oversight, but a report that appeared in the Ilkley Gazette, March 22, 1913, suggests something much more deliberate.
The report describes a lecture by Mr T C Gill, Bailiff of Ilkley Moor, in which he suggests that some of the markings may have been added. The Bailiff even named the person he believed may have been responsible. One Ambrose Collins, a workman employed at the Semon's Convalescent Home from 1872-73 was reported to "spend most of his leisure time carving and ornamenting the rocks near the home, evidently hoping that at some future time they would be discovered and become famous."
Mr Edwards believes his argument is likely to prove controversial as the ladder markings on the Panorama stone are internationally renowned. But he believes the evidence is too powerful simply to ignore.
He said: "The Panorama stones are known internationally because of this unexplained ladder pattern. They are very famous and considered to be very special but I suspect the reason they are special is because they are slightly fraudulent. Once you see the drawings and see the difference, and then read the article you cannot help but come to the conclusion that there is probably something very dodgy about this. Because they are such famous rocks I am deeply surprised that no-one has raised this possibility before. It just seems incredible when the evidence has been there for 90 years. The implication, unfortunately is that if one stone can be altered then how many others have been altered."
There are a number of problems with this introductory idea. There is the simple lack of accuracy about "two Victorian illustrations, one made by an unknown artist probably in the 1860s, and another which appeared in a publication in 1896." As the cited 1896 drawing was a near-copy of one done by the same writer in 1879 - very close to the time when he reckoned some stonemason inflicted his tool upon the hard rock! I'll try dig out some more of Edwards' own words. I know he sent me an email, where he complained about my opinion, which I'll dig out. I can't remember what it was he said.
deadagaindave wrote:If his assertions are wildly conjectural to a point of controversy as you imply, then proper consultation with specialists in the field could be solicited in respect of his remarks.
Well, considering there are accounts of visits by members of the Yorkshire Archaeological Society in the early 1880s,
none of whom made any mention of recent additions; plus a visit to the stones around the same time by Fellows of the Geological Society,
none of whom mentioned any recent additions and, indeed, proclaimed the carvings to be undoubtedly very ancient; plus visits to the carvings before
and after they were moved to their present site by other writers, scientists and acclaimed archaeologists,
none of whom, any of them, ever made any remarks about new additions to the carvings, we have to assume that they either all had very bad eyesight, and/or lied, and/or were bad at their jobs, for us even to begin to accept any notion that they were Victorian in origin. The more obvious conclusion would be that none of them were liars, nor had bad eyesight, and most of them had some degree of competence at what they were describing. Unless of course there's some sorta huge conspiracy at work Dave!
deadagaindave wrote:Analysis of his aptitude could be estimated, and if appropriate, proper representation with supporting evidence, made to his employers.
Makes sense Dave. You'd expect that he'd be as pleased as any good scientist would be to be shown whether his theory is correct or not. If it's incorrect, well...it's incorrect, and I'd expect any decent academic (or amateur) to nod approvingly. Of course it's disappointing to make such errors at first; but much better to be open about such things because, as we all know, we tend to learn quite a lot by actually
making mistakes, enabling us to be more awake & ensure we don't fall into a similar folly next time round.
deadagaindave wrote:In his former role of County Archaeologist, and indeed his current role as Archaelogical museum Curator, it is likely that Mr Edwards, like many in his position, feels that he must come up with the goods when a query is made, rather than just say. ‘I don't know’.
Being humble and admitting we don't know is what makes a better scientist though. Trying to answer all questions with authority would be a little foolish and bring undue stress on ourselves. I know that when people ask me things about Roman archaeology in Yorkshire, I pass the query onto someone with greater knowledge and competence in the field (I know bugger all abaat them Roman-types, being southerners & all...!). As far as I'm aware (don't quote me on this though), Mr Edwards is more qualified in industrial archaeology - which truly aint my cuppa tea. But if I knew for certain that was his field, I'd pass any queries about such matters onto him, knowing he was well qualified in that arena. I assume that's what any sensible person would do, but perhaps I'm a little naive here?
deadagaindave wrote:It may be that prehistory is not his speciality, in fact it may be obviously so to some. In which case, wild assertions and conjecture on prehistorical matters would not only be inappropriate, but potentially destructive. For example, if some commercial interest were to smash the cup and ring carvings on Ilkley Moor, to smithereens with a bulldozer, then go to court and say, ‘Mr Edwards says they are all a load of fakes.' They would certainly have no case if Mr Edwards has merely stated an opinion as to the probability that they may be fakes. If he asserts however that they are indeed fakes, then his actions are highly irresponsible and he should be held to account. He is entitled to his opinion as is everyone, though he holds a position whereby his opinion will carry greater weight with some, who are not aware that archaeology is a flawed and indeterminate disciple at the best of times. We too are entitled to our opinions. And we are entitled to juxtapose Mr Edwards considerations with those of others more qualified and renowned in the fields he pronounces on; and to challenge his opinions on the basis of conflicting, more eminent opinion, where such conflicts of view exist. But to do that, we do need to know EXACTLY what he has said.
Hmmmm...get wot y' men Dave. I'd never thought of it that way - and it's potentially very dangerous. What would you suggest? You could perhaps email him yourself and see if he gives a reply. The fella simply stopped answering my emails when I was asking about looking at some archives - which was really puzzling. He is a public servant, so should give his position on this matter clearly.
Concerned - Paul.