The Northern Antiquarian Forum

Archaeology, folklore & myth of Britain's pre-christian sites & heritage: stone circles, holy wells, maypoles, tombs, archaic cosmologies and human consciousness. Everyone welcome - even Southerners!


    Hi from Blackburn

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    tracyreed

    Join date : 2011-01-26

    Hi from Blackburn

    Post  tracyreed on Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:45 pm

    Hi
    Been reading your posts for a while and you guys are really intersting and knowledgable. Already gleaned plenty of info about my local area from you. Cheers
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    mikki

    Join date : 2009-01-29
    Age : 25
    Location : West Yorkshire

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  mikki on Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:54 pm

    Wowww - Hi Tracy! Great another female....(I hope anyway). Glad to have you on the forum. Please don't be shy (were aren't) if you have any questions, just fire away!


    All the best

    Mikki
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Hi from Blackburn

    Post  Sunbright57 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:39 am

    Hello Tracy, WELCOME and hope you enjoy being on TNA. Ray.
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    Paulus

    Join date : 2009-08-20
    Location : Yorkshire

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  Paulus on Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:42 am

    Hi Tracy!

    Nice to have you on board. We're hopefully going out for a wander on the tops above Blackstone Edge next Thursday/Friday (weather dependant) if you fancy coming along? If not, mebbe we can meet up when we have a wander over to sites a bit closer to Blackburn later in the Spring?
    Are there any decent heathen prehistoric sites near where you are?

    All the best - Paul Smile

    tracyreed

    Join date : 2011-01-26

    Thanks for the welcomes

    Post  tracyreed on Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:01 am

    Cheers everyone, glad to be onboard. Would love to come to Blackstone edge, deffo be there if I can sort kids out. Dont know much about prehistoric sites Paul as I am more of a 'roman' girl myself.

    I do have a little puzzle that I am trying to get to grips with. On the first OS map it shows a Dover Castle at Brindle, gone on the second. Does anyone know anything about it. Could it link to Pickering Castle that was a Whittle le Woods. Charles Hardwick in 1840 reckons Pickering castle could have been used as a fortification at the Battle of Brunanburh. The stained glass windows in the pub at Brindle depict this battle. Also in the graveyard there is a stone coffin, date unknown but thought to be of great antiquity.
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  lowergate on Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:20 am

    From W T Watkin, ROMAN LANCASHIRE, 1883.

    'My attention was lately directed ... to two mounds a little to the south of Heapy, near a place called "Dalton Springs". They lie between the Roman road from Manchester to Ribchester and the small road between Blackrode and Mellor - nearest to the latter. One of them is called "Pickering Castle", the origin of the name lost in obscurity. It would seem by its appearance to be another example of a botontinus.'

    There is a secondary Roman road that runs from Wigan to Ribchester very near to Brindle - see LCC Roman Roads site.

    Also Brindle Church is said to be built on the site of a pagan/Roman temple - will find a ref', & above Brindle is a St Helen's Well.

    best
    lowergate

    FROM LCC RR site:

    Ribchester to Wigan(?) (20.5 miles)

    A few pieces of evidence point to the existence of this road. As already mentioned the Antonine Itinerary gives a distance of 20 miles, which fits a direct route (assuming Coccium is Wigan, which is more likely now with the discovery of the remains of a substantial building with hypocaust, in the town centre 2005 redevelopment). On the direct route are 4 occurences of street or causeway names - map. The first at Rivington was regarded by Birtill, the Chorley historian, as a Roman road continuing further north along Heapey Fold Lane. The next is at Causeway House Farm at Heapey. Finally at Causeway Farm near Riley Green an old raised road is reported decending to cross the River Darwen below Lodge Farm. It is lost across the golf course but appears further on across Long Lane at Cabin Hill/Woodcock Hill (Ref: Dixon - Journeys through Brigantia - Book 11). Another Causeway Farm is located at Osbaldeston. The direction of all these fits a Wigan - Ribchester route.

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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Hi from Blackburn

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:51 am

    Try this link to The British History Online website and scroll down to Brindle St James church-yard http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53075


    Last edited by Sunbright57 on Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

    tracyreed

    Join date : 2011-01-26

    Thanks

    Post  tracyreed on Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:21 pm

    Cheers Sunbright but that document, which I have read a million times, gives me nothing that I don't already know.

    And thank you too Lowergate. I have found the road it passes through Causeway farm, then up through Wicken farm, then through Windy Harbour Farm between Wheelton and Brinscall. The farmer appears to have uncovered it there and the stones are still in situ. Brindle does not appear to be on the same alignment. Some believe however that there was a Roman settlement at Brindle as a small hoard of coins was uncovered there.

    Hardwick talks of Pickering castle supposing that it is a corruption of Bickering, but does not mention Dover Castle. On the first OS map Houghton Side Gate is at one side. If you look at the aerial photos on Mario, you can make out crop marks on the 1940s and 1950s view.
    http://www.archive.org/stream/onsomeancientbat00hardrich#page/n5/mode/2up

    Cheers
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  lowergate on Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:45 pm

    The following may be of use to you re Battle of BB, if not ignore - Lowergate

    The bounds of Gunolfsmoors included the existing townships of Heapey, Wheelton (with Brinscall), Withnell (with Roddlesworth, Stanworth, and Ollerton), and part of Hoghton.

    Gunnolf – ON – ‘fighting wolf’ is the name of a Hiberno-Norse Viking who laid claim to these lands that lie between the territorial divisions of Leylandshire and Blackburnshire in the 10th century.

    Within the Harris Museum, Preston can be found the Upper section of a pre-Conquest stone ‘cross’. Though much damaged on three of its sides the main face displays the upper section of a horned-helmeted figure holding a sword before it. The spreading horns suggest an important figure from the Viking period in Lancashire (c.900). This large and important piece of sculpture was found during the construction of Rivington reservoir, 1852-7, on the River Yarrow near the village of Grimeford, Anderton.

    Also found at that time during the reservoir construction was the lower section of a ‘cross’ shaft. This shaft is decorated on all four sides with carvings which include: the figure of a man from the waist down, a trellis filled with geometrical ornamentation of horizontal and vertical straight lines repeated to form a band known as a fret, a modified version of T-fret, and a combination of vine scroll and frets. The top of the shaft serves as the base for what is possibly a post medieval sundial base which has been adapted for use as a direction stone with directions to Preston, Wiggan, Boulton, and Blagburn (spelled as on the stone) being carved on the sides. I would suggest that the two fragments are parts of the same monolith and may even depict the Viking Gunnolf (the latter being my own fancy). This headless ‘cross’ is sited at the junction on the old road near the Millstone pub in Anderton and Grimeford Lane by the old village stocks on the way to Rivington (SD 618 130). The stone is known as the Grimeford Headless Cross, or more locally as the Headless Boggart. Legend has it that there used to be a chapel near the junction and a tunnel running to a nearby farm on a hill. In the 16th century shortly before troops came to destroy the chapel, a priest hid in the tunnel and became trapped underground. His body was never found and many local people have claimed to have seen his ghost at the Headless Cross.

    BRINDLE PARISH CHURCH

    Brindle is one of the oldest parishes in Lancashire and a church has existed here since 1190 its first rector then recorded as Ughtred. The original dedication of the church was to St Helen and this may point to a post-Roman British religious site that may have served such a role back to prehistoric times (local antiquarians state that the church stands on the site of a Roman temple)..The church is sited on raised ground commanding the surrounding landscape, and the infant River Lostock springs from the eastern slope.

    Lots of ancient crosses in Brindle Parish

    PS: do you have a grid ref for Pickering Castle ?
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Hi from Blackburn

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:58 pm

    Oh, sorry Tracy, I don't know much about the early history of Brindle. I do, however, know about a Roman Catholic martyr from that area in the 16th-17th century, but maybe thats not what you are interested in ? I am sure other members of the TNA will be able to help you. Ray.
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    DOVER CASTLE

    Post  lowergate on Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:26 pm

    I may be on the wrong track here ...

    The following is from a site called BRINDLE AT WAR -



    A camp was built sometime around the start of World War Two on Dover Lane, on the north east boundary of the village in the shadow of Duxon Hill. Named Dover Lane because its main entrance was off the lane, it housed men who serviced the guns and searchlights for the Army in the North West.

    ... more on web site describing quite a large army camp

    tracyreed

    Join date : 2011-01-26

    Thanks Ray

    Post  tracyreed on Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:37 pm

    Reread my message and may have sounded a bit abrupt, didnt mean to be. The martyr was St Edmund Arrowsmith. He got caught after the landlord of the local pub tipped the authorities off. He tried to flee on his horse but the horse refused to jump the brook and he was caught. He dropped a small statuette, which is the British Museum I think, of the Virgin Mary. He was then sentenced to a very long and painful death, which included having his face ripped off whist still alive, nice eh.

    Lowergate, thanks really interested in the site of the battle. So thanks for the info. Pickering Castle is now covered by a landfill site. I will post ref later as my internet is really slow at the moment and wont load Mario. I could probably walk there quicker.

    Can see your reasoning on the prisoner of war camp but its long gone by then. Only shows on the very first OS map, is it 1840s, gone on the next (1860s)
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re Thanks Ray

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:03 pm

    Ok don't worry about that Tracy. Well, I didn't think you'd be interested but obviously you are. Yes, St Edmund Arrowsmith who was executed at Lancaster on 28th August 1628. He apparently preached at a cottage in Brindle - the village being the centre of his missionary activity. His holy hand a revered relic to Roman Catholics is on display at St Oswald's church Ashton-in-Makerfield and where many miracles have occured. Good luck with your research, hope you find the information you require. Ray.
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  lowergate on Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:41 am

    I never knew of the WW11 army camp - all grist to the mill

    Could be that the name Dover Castle relates to Duxon Stone Quarry - often quarries were called 'castles'

    As to the site of the Battle of B - good luck in your search - you follow in the footfalls of many other researchers in that quest!
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    deadagaindave

    Join date : 2010-12-25

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  deadagaindave on Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:58 am

    They were truly horrible to Edmund Arrowsmith.
    http://freespace.virgin.net/mick.gardner/stedarr.htm

    After his arrest…
    "He was taken to the Boar's Head where 9 shillings of his money was spent on drink."

    Vileness itself! affraid
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    St Edmund Arrowmith, Priest and Martyr

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:21 am

    Yes indeed, what a horrible end to such a nice chap. Those were the times they lived in and to be a Catholic priest you had to be so careful where you went, who you spoke to. I cannot imagine living in a society like that. Many other priests suffered much the same. St John Wall of Chingle Hall, St Ambrose Barlow of Wardley Hall, St Margaret Clitheroe at York who suffered by being squashed to death by heavy boards. Her grave and relics were supposedly at Ribchester (The Stydd Chapel). And, the two relations of Alice Nutter of Roughlee Hall near Pendle Hill aka Bd John Nutter and St Robert Nutter of Brierfield. I could go on !
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    deadagaindave

    Join date : 2010-12-25

    Re: Hi from Blackburn

    Post  deadagaindave on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:12 am

    I dunno Sunbright. We aren't far off a society like that; with all these politically correct shitbags, hovering around every corner to accuse everyone from the Pope and the Royal family, to program sellers at Ewood Park, of every kind is ism and phobia they can dream up, if somebody buys a tin of boot polish or has a crease in their trousers.
    There are times when I think that tearing their faces off, and supping their money might be just the ticket. What a Face
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    BATTLE OF BRUNANBURH

    Post  lowergate on Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:58 am

    Hi,

    Was at LHS lecture at Lancaster Uni the other day. Oxford proff talk about Vikings in the NW. He thought the site of the battle sould be sought on the Wirral.
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Battle of Brunanburh

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:13 am

    Yes John I have often wondered whether Bromborough on the Wirral might have been where the battle was fought, a few others places-names have been put forward too, but I would like to think it happened on the moors above Burnley somewhere near the River Brun. I don't think we will ever really know it's precise location - only the place-names remain. Did you know that Anonymous from the Meg Portal has relations living at Portfield hillfort, near Whalley. They apparently own the land there. Thought you might be interested in that little snippet of information. Anonymous seems to be everywhere !!! Cheers John. Ray.
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