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Archaeology, folklore & myth of Britain's pre-christian sites & heritage: stone circles, holy wells, maypoles, tombs, archaic cosmologies and human consciousness. Everyone welcome - even Southerners!


    Cup and ring mystery solved!

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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  rodjack on Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:11 am

    Greetings Stoners,
    Could the cups be formed by the shaping of the handheld part of a teardrop shaped hand axe? I have looked at some just found in Kenya on the BBC science site and it 'struck' me. The haphazard placing of them has to point to some practical use and the decoration? well they must have had a lot of spare time on their hands, obviously.
    This also seems to explain the size of the cups as they all look to be ground out to the same diameter and depth which would be the case if this was their function.
    Also they must have been caused by rotation as chipping these things out would have caused uneveness in formation.
    Looking forward to being 'shot down'.
    Rod Axeman. :<a href=\'h
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  lowergate on Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:14 am

    Acid rain since the time of the early days of the Industrial Revolution (with lead smelting and coal burning such 'honey-pots' as Grassington must have looked like the pill of Hell in those times) will cause fragments of quartz to ease from their 360 million year old gritstone beds and alow the impressions left by the lost quartz to erode further into a wonder of circular forms .... the hand of man in recent historical times ... and so it goes on ... Simon Armitage is doing nothing more ... than Flint Knap Jack & other Yorkshire opportunists did ...

    pure sedimentary sedition to add to the enigmatic brew

    others will stir the seething liquid further ....
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    QDanT

    Join date : 2011-05-29
    Location : Earby used to be in Yorkshire

    Marbles

    Post  QDanT on Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:53 am

    The Bear says Marbles



    cheers Danny


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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  rodjack on Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:18 am

    Hi John, not going for the eroded quartz, cups formed on sloping rock would not appear circular as they do, but would form a groove downwards.
    As for 'marbles' from QdanT, If they were playing marbles how would they get them to go into the cups on the slopes? And don't suggest levitation!
    Axeman. scared
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  lowergate on Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:32 am



    An early form of Ludo ?

    Tiddlywinks ?
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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  rodjack on Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:39 am

    Take a look at 'exciting stone tool find in Kenya' at BBC science and environment.
    Hey John, same problem as marbles! Keep trying tho!
    Axeman bad
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    QDanT

    Join date : 2011-05-29
    Location : Earby used to be in Yorkshire

    Sticky Snot balls

    Post  QDanT on Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:37 am

    The Bear say's how about "Sticky Snot Balls"


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    Paulus

    Join date : 2009-08-20
    Location : Yorkshire

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  Paulus on Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:41 am

    HI Rod -

    rodjack wrote:Could the cups be formed by the shaping of the handheld part of a teardrop shaped hand axe?

    Makes sense. I've done a couple of 'em (yet to be discovered by the archaeo's) and used just such pieces of stone. Easy to use, fit in the hand easily, and also give a uniformity of size as found in most of them (explaining Thom's megalithic inch without need for mathematics - much though I love Thom)

    Cheers - Paul
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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  rodjack on Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:44 am

    Hi Paul,
    I'm really pleased that you give my idea some credence.
    Big problem with it though. I spoke with John about it. These hand axes were in use, going from the ones found in Kenya, nearly two million years ago. If these cups were made here at that time for this purpose it would mean that these stones survived many ice ages and I don't think this could be possible as they all seem to be in situ. That is unless the sites were undisturbed and lay in areas where glaciation didn't have an effect. If the topography of the sites were mapped for glaciation this could provide an answer.
    Hey, great minds think alike, nice!
    Axeman. welldone
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    QDanT

    Join date : 2011-05-29
    Location : Earby used to be in Yorkshire

    Snot Balls

    Post  QDanT on Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:54 pm

    The frozen past

    The last Ice Age in Britain took place around 10,000 years ago and lasted for some 80,000 years. During this period, one third of the world was covered in ice with much of Great Britain hidden under vast glaciers.

    The glaciers and ice sheets transported huge amounts of debris, ranging from huge boulders to fine rock particles, which helped to form much of the landscape seen around us today.

    As the ice melted, the glaciers eventually dumped their rock debris, known as till or boulder clay, which formed many our smaller scale features of mounds and ridges, called moraines.

    Other evidence of glacial deposition includes erratics, rocks transported hundreds of kilometres by ice sheets and deposited in different geological areas.
    Cheers Daanny


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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  rodjack on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:51 am

    Thanks Danny.
    OK, so the cups can't be millions of years old but they could still be caused by the same tool making process, only dating from ten to two and a half thousand years ago.
    So I'm sticking to my guns!
    I am intrigued by the symmetry of the rings though, I don't have any ideas about the method used to produce them, does anyone?
    Just as an afterthought,do any of the rocks on which cup and rings appear show any evidence of glacial erosion?
    Axeman :<a href=\'h
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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  rodjack on Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:47 am

    That should have been ten to two and a half thousand years ago BC.
    The rings could be part of a system which was constructed to grip and rotate the stone in an upright position. Grinding a stone only using your hands seems like an arduous task, so some mechanical method would be a must.The guy who invented one of these could have been in the money selling his products!
    Anyone out there with an inventive mind?
    Axeman smokin\'
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    deadagaindave

    Join date : 2010-12-25

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  deadagaindave on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:45 pm

    Cup and rings resemble the pattern of a drop of water falling into water. They were definitely carved, but by who and when, and what the hell were they supposed to mean?
    All we can do is speculate and /or denigrate the speculation of others, basically argue about them. At least until some scientifically acceptable method of dating them is forthcoming. The truth of that is that, as it stands a qualified or doctored archaeologist, has as much idea of the truth of them, as a coal heaver walking his whippet past them. toxic bangingheadagainstwa smokin\' pig
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

    Post  lowergate on Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:50 pm

    "They were definitely carved,"

    NOT quite correct ...

    'formed from' be it more precise

    DOMINO GAME

    At a table in a dim confined space
    it is only a simple raki shop
    stone and cement and labour

    The eyes take in a table
    the laminate top displays a centre
    no, a polished circle

    Chipboard shows a timeworn surface
    polished by play
    ivory oblongs share ebony spots

    Brass rivets aid the spin
    like spots mate
    tabac shared, raki


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    Re: Cup and ring mystery solved!

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