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    The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 59
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:55 pm

    I wish to know if anyone has an idea roughly where abouts the border lines were situated seperating the old Kingdom of Dunoting, now known as Craven and Dent, at either side of the more well-known kingdoms of Rheged to the west and Elmet to the east and, also the border which seperated this kingdom from 'The Peaks'. The old kingdom of Dunoting flourished during the 4th-6th centuries AD with its few kings being of Welsh extraction and related to Coel Hen (Coel the Old) who hailed from Strathclyde in south west Scotland in the 4th century AD. Did the southern edge of Dunoting extend as far south as the Lancashire Pennines - the Barnoldswick, Nelson (Marsden) and Burnley area. Any information would be of great help, thank you.
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
    Age : 68
    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  lowergate on Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:19 am

    The small old post-Roman kingdom of Craven was centred on Gargrave & followed the 'in Craven' placenames as recorded in the Norman Survey bordering on the large kingdom of Elmet in the east and Rheged, a large kingdom of many hundreds (commotes) of which Blackburnshire was one, in the west. By C7 the kingdom of Craven was absorbed in the greater kingdom of Elmet, and later was was a part of the greater kingdom of Northumbria.

    See: EARLY TERRITORIAL ORGANIZATION IN GWYNEDD & ELMET, Prof. G.R.J.Jones, Vol 10, 1975, Northern History, University of Leeds, Ed: G.C.F.Foster. pp. 3-27.

    Regards

    john
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 59
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:35 am

    Thanks John, I knew you would come up with some info. Did you enjoy your stay over in the east ?Razz
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
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    Location : CLITHEROE

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  lowergate on Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:05 am

    Hi Ray,

    Yes, superb 10 day trip. A lot of hard rain, just great for testing out the equipment and tents. The east coast is great for wild camping - lots of places by the sea with water and wood for the fire - at one with nature is how we all should be, though geting harder to achieve in the modern facist state that we have lived under Boy Blair and the current Etonian Molly-boys.

    The UK in well into decline at long last - roll on the Fall - the West needs a Putin-type leader and bloody soon!

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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 59
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:18 am

    Yes, I agree with you John. I notice that Etonian Cameran and his side-kick Osborne are both sunning it up abroard while the country goes to the dogs with riots and what not going on in Tottenham, even that poodle Clegg is away. Uncle Vince is left to sort out the whole shambles of a mess, and that bald bloke Hague bringing up the rear.



    Up-date Calamity Clegg is now back from his hols.bounce And Cameron's decided to abort his holidays and return to London.bounce


    Last edited by Sunbright57 on Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    rodjack

    Join date : 2010-09-09

    Smee agen

    Post  rodjack on Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:48 am

    C'mon guys, less politics more stones! headagainstwall
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 59
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  Sunbright57 on Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:37 am

    Yes, I know but John got me going. You wouldn't get this on The Megalithic Portal ?!Basketball

    Have we got a new editor on here ??Embarassed Where's Paul ?
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    lowergate

    Join date : 2010-11-01
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    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  lowergate on Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:29 am

    Paul is on holiday trying his best to organize an anti-capitalist riot in a remote part of Perthshire
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
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    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  Sunbright57 on Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:44 am

    I thought so, he'll have a job on up there in deepest Perthshire !!Shocked

    terryoak

    Join date : 2012-10-26

    Borders of Craven

    Post  terryoak on Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:00 pm


    Bookmark the permalink.
    LKM: Craven
    Dec1 by Michelle Ziegler

    This month’s lost kingdom is the British kingdom of Craven. It has been identified by placenames only and its existence as a distinct district in the Domesday Book. The district of Craven is to the north-west of Elmet reaching to the rivers Ribble, Wharfe, and Aire. Note that in the past, most of Craven has been referred to as southern Rheged. So, now we know that this was not part of Rheged.

    Wood asserts that the name Craven is Old Welsh from crafu ‘to scratch or to scrap’, meaning scraped land. This fits the faults, the rock formations, of this mountainous region. A large portion of Craven was in the Pennine mountains.

    Wood describes Craven as “a large district in Anglo-Saxon times, controlling the upper dales of the Wharfe, Ribble, and Aire, and containing two possible shires in the eleventh century.” It seems to fit what Bede and contemporary writers called “regions” within the “provinces” (kingdoms). Wood notes that these “regions”, where evidence exists, appear to have once been independent tribes, clans or kingdoms.

    Places in the region of Craven are mentioned once in Anglo-Saxon literature. When church of Ripon is consecrated, Bishop Wilfrid reads out a list of lands given to him by Kings Ecgfrith and his brother King Ælfwine. These lands were “holy places in various parts of the country which the British clergy, fleeing from our own hostile sword, had deserted….They gave Wilfrid land round Ribble, Yeadon, Dent, and Catlow” (Farmer, p. 124). These lands all fall in the district of the proposed kingdom of Craven and therefore date its transfer to Northumbria, probably recently under Kings Ecgfrith and Ælfwine in the early 670s. Expanding ‘Northumbria’ east of the Pennines appears to be Ecgfrith’s primary areas of conquest, probably against relatively minor opposition (compared to Mercia south of Elmet or the Picts north of Lothian).

    Most English kings prior to Ecgfrith appear to have been willing or compelled to be satisfied with hegemony over their British neighbors. It may be that they simply didn’t have enough English retainers to fill all the necessary administrative positions within an enlarged kingdom. Yet, the last significant British power within what we normally consider Northumbria fell with Cadwallon at the battle of Denisesburna against Oswald in 634. The Bernician dynasty was still too weak in 634 to occupy and expel the British aristocrats. There is reason to think that, like his father Æthelfrith, Oswald was willing to work with British kingdoms, as evidenced by the marriage of his brother Oswiu to Rheinmellt great granddaughter of Urien Rheged. Likewise, Oswiu seems to have been satisfied by exerting hegemony over most of the northern British kingdoms. Although Oswiu exerted hegemony over distant kingdoms (Pictland, Dalriada, Strathclyde, Lindsey, and elsewhere), Ecgfrith is the first credited with expanding direct control over more British territory. Gododdin, their nearest northern neighbor, is the only region that Oswald and Oswiu seem to have annexed directly into Bernicia. Likewise, Edwin is only credited with permanently annexing Elmet.

    References and suggested reading:

    PN Wood (1996) “On the Little British Kingdom of Craven” Northern History 32: 1-20.

    CM Taylor (1992) “Elmet: boundaries and Celtic survival in the post-Roman period.” Medieval History 2: 111-129.

    Farmer, David (ed and trans) (1988) “Eddius Stephanus: Life of Wilfrid” in The Age of Bede. Penguin.
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 59
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re: The Old Kingdom of Dunoting

    Post  Sunbright57 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:30 pm

    Thankyou for that fascinating information Terry. Its very interesting. Sadly, John Dixon who, like myself was well into the land kingdom of Dunoting, is no longer with us, but I'm sure he will be reading it in spirit. sunny

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