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    Dowsing ancient sites

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    Vapour Trail

    Join date : 2011-03-29
    Age : 48
    Location : Chester

    Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Vapour Trail on Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:48 am

    Hello everyone,

    This is my first proper post, so be gentle. I started getting interested in stone circles and other ancient sites by dowsing them. I was wondering how many other fellow dowsers there are out there in Northern AQ world?

    Oh, and if you don't dowse ancient sites...what the heck do you do at them? Let's see what people get up to, shall we? Practical, prosaic, poetic, perverted or plain strange - what do you do with the energies at sacred sites?

    Gwas.
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    Paulus

    Join date : 2009-08-20
    Location : Yorkshire

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Paulus on Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:26 pm

    Hi Gwas!

    May I ask...

    Vapour Trail wrote:...I started getting interested in stone circles and other ancient sites by dowsing them.

    What exactly d' y' mean, when you say you dowsed them? I ask, as I've encountered countless people down the years dowsing at sites, most of whom were new to the practice; but when I've enquired what they think they're finding, the general response - incorrectly - is 'energy'. This is then followed on by verbal invocations of esoteric systems, albeit naive ones. I suppose we could stretch things and say, perhaps, that 'energy' is being detected by dowsing newcomers - as they're simply reacting to water, which has an electromagnetic field. I know this is how Tom Graves sees things; as did Guy Underwood, T.C. Lethbridge and all the classical dowsing writers. We know Paul Devereux wholly dismisses this 'energy dowsing' fraternity - and he's been into earth mysteries as long as anyone and written more texts on the subject than anyone alive. So....just wondering...

    ...As for what I've got up to at some of these old stone places - some of it you wouldn't believe! From ritual magick and meditation, to ASCs, archaeo-assessments, naked dancing, measuring rods, guided tours, etc. Depends on who I'm with; the time of day & year, etc. Multifunctional sites require multifunctional perspectives and analyses I've found. Wink

    All the best - Paul
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Naked Dancing !

    Post  Sunbright57 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:53 am

    The mind boggles - naked dancing. Isn't it a bid chilly for that sort of thing. Oh, and mind the barbed-wire, you don't want to get caught by the goolies !!!
    study


    Last edited by Sunbright57 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Vapour Trail

    Join date : 2011-03-29
    Age : 48
    Location : Chester

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Vapour Trail on Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:43 am

    Hi Paul,

    Well, I'm afraid I am one of those foolish earth energy dowsers. I leave the water divining to others as there's no need for it in this country, is there? Especially up North! We get enough water.

    You are correct that Graves et al. all have their own perspectives on this and most of the "old guard" say that it is simply due to water. Well, luckily most of them are dead now and so I hope we can move on from that rather limited viewpoint. Mostly, these people were interested in bringing dowsing into the realms of the scientific method. In my experience this is folly, and a waste of time. Dowsing will never subject itself to such blinkered scrutiny and those who have followed that path have driven themselves crazy. Sadly, it was at that point that they chose to write a book, and this is what most people have read since about dowsing! ;-)

    In my opinion, earth energies are a combination of several factors:-
    1) Electro-magnetic effects arising from the earth's own magnetic core and its associated field
    2) Water passing over crystalling rock causing a piezo-electric discharge
    3) The radiance of particles arising from the decomposition of radiactive matter, usually at geological fault lines
    4) The bio-electric energy fields of humans and other living creatures, especially trees and large shrubs.
    5) The radiant light energy from The Sun, distant stars, and the reflected energy from The Moon and other planets close enough to register a response.
    6) The decaying or remnant energies of formerly living organisms, particularly humans.

    I do not have any scientific training or apparatus and do not intend to do scientific experiments at this stage to try to prove that these sources are in fact the true sources of these energies. What I know about them has been provided to me from the experience of working with the energies in their various forms, and discovering sources through the dowsing itself (e.g. being led to a point where running water can be discovered underneath a rock, or something like that). Clearly, I don't have a radon gas detector or electromagnetic frequency detector, and have no intention of getting them, so my ideas remain as ideas - untested, unproven. I'm fine with that. The framework they generate makes sense to me, and allows me to work satifactorily towards a better understanding. Others should develop their own theories based on their own data. My theories are for me and me alone.

    You may begin to see now why I don't hold with the "it's water" or "it's radon gas" theories. I believe the source are from a lot of things in combination. However, together they form the umbrella terms "Earth energy", "Celestial energy", "Living energy" and "Death energy". For me.

    Those are the energies that I dowse at stone circles. And yes, they are my own crackpot theories that have been devised from the ground up based on pure experiential and experimental data gathered over the course of some 100+ different site visits of varying types over many years. Of course I have also read most of the other books out there on dowsing, and I stand on the shoulders of giants when it comes to field research. I am no archeo-astronomer like Lockyer or Michell. I can't say I have walked as many miles as David Cowan. Nor have I travelled as far as Hamish Miller in my research. Yet, I have developed a large pot of experience, and I am always open to my theories being blown over by the next piece of data.

    Thanks for asking. I just love spelling it out in black and white - makes me think about how to deliver the information clearly. Hope that answers your question?

    Gwas.
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    Paulus

    Join date : 2009-08-20
    Location : Yorkshire

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Paulus on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:36 am

    Hi Gwas -

    It seems, like many folks, that you've got the wrong notion of what constitutes real science - as opposed to the politicization and sociogenic infection of science, as poorly portrayed in the Press and the Net. Much of what science really is has been dumbed-down, misrepresented and become bollox. Let's take your example of what you loosely term 'energies.'

    Vapour Trail wrote:In my opinion, earth energies are a combination of several factors:-
    1) Electro-magnetic effects arising from the earth's own magnetic core and its associated field
    2) Water passing over crystalling rock causing a piezo-electric discharge
    3) The radiance of particles arising from the decomposition of radiactive matter, usually at geological fault lines
    4) The bio-electric energy fields of humans and other living creatures, especially trees and large shrubs.
    5) The radiant light energy from The Sun, distant stars, and the reflected energy from The Moon and other planets close enough to register a response.
    6) The decaying or remnant energies of formerly living organisms, particularly humans.

    All of these 'energies' as you call them, are measurable by scientific means. There's nowt esoteric about such things. It seems as if you've perhaps not caught up with where science is, but are more stuck in the old-school notion of what used to be deemed as science. Science is quite stunning & has a helluva lot to say about these supposed esoteric fields. Physicists Paul Davies & John Gribbin in a recent work (called The Matter Myth) start their work with the chapter "The End of Materialism" - which is more apt in terms of what you're talking about, surely? Are you confusing materialism with science? They're two very different things - but it's a common mistake.

    As an occultist (which means simply, 'seeker of the hidden' - which is the same approach of all real scientists), testing things out, resting 'em against the presiding mythic structures and see if they fit, is what any decent student should be doing - and if they don't work out, find out how and why they don't. Sometimes the scientific myth aint big enough to accomodate one's findings; with others, they tinkle at the edge of it. But denouncing science and alleging dowsing etc, cannot be looked at by such a methodology is very naive and, moreso, will eventually lead to the same sorta delusions as born-again xtians & similar nuts, uttering their mantras of "cos I say so!"

    Of course there's been many-a-time when I've been places and encountered some things which, to this day, I can't quantify in rational scientific terms - and so I just leave it as something that's just utterly fascinating: another one of the countless unknown quantities that exist throughout the natural universe...

    ttfn - Paul
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    Vapour Trail

    Join date : 2011-03-29
    Age : 48
    Location : Chester

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Vapour Trail on Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:44 pm

    Hi Paul,

    I know what you're saying in defence of Science and its methodology. I'm not dismissing the scientific concept in general, or rather in its stated aim - to seek to understand that which is not currently known. That is not science - that's curiosity. If scientists are now the sole administrators of curiosity and seeking truth and knowledge then there is no room for wild free thinkers to contribute - an aspect of modern mainstream science's approach that particularly annoys me - this sticking a flag in the ground of thought and claiming its dominion.

    As far as I am aware there are no instruments capable of detecting the kind of energy that my dowsing rods are reacting to. Now, I know that the rods are only reacting because I, as a human being, am part of that instrument. As far as I know there is no mechanical device that can make the same readings as I am able to make. Please tell me if there is - but I haven't seen one advertised, or heard of one in my readings. It may exist - I'm just not aware of it.

    So, that leaves me with a number of dilemmas. Firstly, I am able to register and interpret some form of information that is being translated somehow into the movement of the dowsing rods - this is cheap, easy, and portable. Why would I defer that to a machine even if one existed?

    Secondly, how would I interpret the results of any machine that was capable of registering this energy form that I can detect? With my dowsing rods I can subtly, easily and almost without limitation change the search criteria, AND simply understand the responses. I can program those responses such that I can get specific answers to enquiries, or I can leave them to demonstrate some natural form of the energy which I can then record. How would this be possible in any other way?

    Using the rods I am free to explore in an almost limitless fashion. What kind of exploration could I do within the confines of a scientific approach, no matter how sophisticated?

    A scientific approach also seems to close off the other invaluable aspect - in what way am I able to use my own mind as a receiver for information if I subject it to the strictures of a rational or mechanical testing system? Surely one of the tenets of the scientific method is to remove the experimenter from the equation thus rendering the experiment generic and repeatable in outside of time and space? (Let's not get too embroiled in the annoying little aspect of quantum physics and the fact that no experiment can be outside of either the subjugations of time or space).

    And so because I can't see the advantage of it, I am not ...how can I put it...I'm just not really interested in trying to limit the way that I can approach the investigation of these energies. It's simply that. Dowsing is so free and flexible that all other forms of tool-based or rule-based enquiry seems pointless.

    I am only concerned with information that I can use. I don't care about it being provable. I'm not concerned that it is not acceptable. I have no qualms about it being "in my mind". You may call this Pragmatism. It is, but it is also a rational enquiry. I do not simply "come up" with things. I have a logical approach to questioning, I plan my tests, I seek to rule out extraneous variables, I consider the results carefully and I demonstrate where possible that I have no ruled out other factors that I might not be aware of. Doesn't that sound like a scientific method? Not only. It's a sensible time-saving and valuable approach that yields direct usable results that feed back into my world-view and knowledge base so that I can learn from it. I call this "pragmatic curiosity", not science.

    What about the woolly stuff? Oh there's lots of that too. I work with intuition, coincidence, signs, guidance from spirits, death energies, shades, the elements and animals. Now, under no circumstances that I have encountered could any of that kind of gnostic information be acceptable to a scientific approach. It is scoffed at, laughed at, ridiculed, trashed and generally belittled at every stage of a discussion with anyone who I have ever met who claims to be a "rationalist" or to work with a scientific method. And you wonder why I don't favour such a method? Too limiting. Closed minds. Closed minds do not form new concepts - they only refine existing ones.

    Now, maybe I'm mixing up a whole load of things here, and I am certain there are a number of scientists who are open to new modes of thinking and experimenting. I just haven't encountered one yet, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Let's just say - they don't seem good role models for me and my enquiries into this invisible realm of mind, energy and spirit. When I come across a scientists talking in those terms, then I may be open to a discussion about how such matters may be investigated using the scientific methods.

    Do you know such people?
    Gwas.
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    cropredy

    Join date : 2009-02-02

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  cropredy on Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:10 pm

    Vapour trail,
    Howdo,
    If I could offer my hobbit opinion?
    You need to think of what the word ENERGY is.
    IMHO, It's life vapour trail, but not how we know it.

    I would strongly recommend aquainting oneself with fibonacci , and the golden ratio.
    See if anyone in the scientific religious group can tell You what life is, what electricity is, what time is?
    I would then recommend learning as much as possible about geometry and how different dimensions of such exist in the self same local.
    Think of the planet as been alive, of the moon been alive, of the sun and other planets been alive, of the galaxy been alive, of the universe been alive.
    Then consider how scale comes into play as each system interacts symbiotically with all other systems, and that carries on down way smaller than atoms.
    Then dismiss the indoctrinated stories of ancient sites, and listen to your own heart, You actually KNOW.
    cropredy
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    Vapour Trail

    Join date : 2011-03-29
    Age : 48
    Location : Chester

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Vapour Trail on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:52 am

    Hi cropredy,

    I thank you for your helpful advice. Most of that is stuff that I am already aware of - Fibonacci spirals, Golden Ratio and Mean, sacred geometry - I have many books on those subjects and am well read about them.

    As for considering the word "energy" - well, that's all I do! That is my life's mission - to work out what these subtle energies and their associated fields are. I know that science has managed to put many of these energies onto paper, and to theorise about their behaviour patterns, but I believe there are still some that are missing.

    My ideas of what ancient sites are about changes regularly, depending on what new information I have available. I'm not precious about my ideas.

    VT.
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    cropredy

    Join date : 2009-02-02

    time

    Post  cropredy on Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:03 am

    Vapour trail,
    I have carefully measured all I detect, and found fibonacci sequencing long before I knew anything of it via dowsing.
    IMHO,
    The flows often called dragon flows etc etc etc, are of time, one time flowing under opposite attraction.
    How this duality of time locally meanders is further manipupulated by mass and matter.
    The megaliths are to achieve this , in a multitude of ways, and for different agendas.
    I have carefully plotted out the way these time flows encircled all living objects, humans are the easiest to do this with , but trees and such are close behind as well.
    What I have found is a heart centred torroidal actions where these time flows circulate .
    I would recommend ANU.
    http://www.greatdreams.com/grace/126/134anuqa.html
    http://www.greatdreams.com/grace/100/110anu.html

    The dual whorl vortex is how people are detectable as in a variety of overall diameters, and the dual sheath DNA like spiral internally is often called kundalini.

    This is YOUR time field/information field, and it is sustained and supplied down in a scalar self similer fashion from ever increasing such time field circulations.
    The earth has such, the galaxy/the universe......right down to below atoms.

    The ideal state of this is in balance, and a good supply of each opposite spin part of this balance....to the heart centre...which is in my opinion what was been shown by the balance scales with a heart on it in Egyptian symbols.

    YOU are a time field, and can therefore interact with all other time fields, the megaliths were to locally manouver the opposite flows into whatever desired local percentages were deemed required for local benifit and especially fertility which unless the two are present in balance will suffer.
    kevin

    iancarr

    Join date : 2011-01-10
    Location : Manchester

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  iancarr on Fri May 06, 2011 5:15 am

    Vapour Trail wrote:You are correct that Graves et al. all have their own perspectives on this and most of the "old guard" say that it is simply due to water. Well, luckily most of them are dead now and so I hope we can move on from that rather limited viewpoint.


    What a stupid attitude. Please keep this juvenile nonsensical approach off your site Paul. You can do without it.

    Vapour Trail wrote:Mostly, these people were interested in bringing dowsing into the realms of the scientific method.

    And then reading this, we can safely place this gentleman in the pot of nutcases. Does he never use things like a computer, or a TV, or radio, or car, or other aspects of modern society, as he denounces the scientific method? It is an approach that he will hopefully see as shallower and shallower, the older he becomes. If not, he will get more and more lost as the years pass him by. scratch

    Yours - Ian
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    cropredy

    Join date : 2009-02-02

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  cropredy on Fri May 13, 2011 2:14 pm

    iancarr wrote:
    Vapour Trail wrote:You are correct that Graves et al. all have their own perspectives on this and most of the "old guard" say that it is simply due to water. Well, luckily most of them are dead now and so I hope we can move on from that rather limited viewpoint.


    What a stupid attitude. Please keep this juvenile nonsensical approach off your site Paul. You can do without it.

    Vapour Trail wrote:Mostly, these people were interested in bringing dowsing into the realms of the scientific method.

    And then reading this, we can safely place this gentleman in the pot of nutcases. Does he never use things like a computer, or a TV, or radio, or car, or other aspects of modern society, as he denounces the scientific method? It is an approach that he will hopefully see as shallower and shallower, the older he becomes. If not, he will get more and more lost as the years pass him by. scratch

    Yours - Ian

    Obviously from lancashire?
    Cropredy

    iancarr

    Join date : 2011-01-10
    Location : Manchester

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  iancarr on Tue May 17, 2011 3:11 am

    cropredy wrote:Obviously from lancashire?

    You are right. But I move between Manchester and Glasgow regularly these days, for family and work, which can be annoying.
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    cropredy

    Join date : 2009-02-02

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  cropredy on Tue May 17, 2011 2:11 pm

    iancarr wrote:
    cropredy wrote:Obviously from lancashire?

    You are right. But I move between Manchester and Glasgow regularly these days, for family and work, which can be annoying.

    Hmmmm, a strange brew?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NholHANoY
    Cropredy
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Sunbright57 on Wed May 18, 2011 1:41 pm

    Lancashire "brew"(tea) "Stew and hard" (oatcakes) and the old "hotpot" (stew), and all that !!!! I'm a Lancashire lad, too. lol!
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    cropredy

    Join date : 2009-02-02

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  cropredy on Thu May 19, 2011 12:08 am

    Sunbright57 wrote:Lancashire "brew"(tea) "Stew and hard" (oatcakes) and the old "hotpot" (stew), and all that !!!! I'm a Lancashire lad, too. lol!

    Howdo ,
    I have no problem with Lancashire folks, there all reet really.
    It is surprising though how a high percentage of those from the wrong side of the hill display this tendancy to remain in the past, and to act in a sheep like manner( not really surprising?)
    There are of course some similer from Yorkshire, maybe they escaped over the hill?

    Dowsing does bring out these tendancies like a rash, it's as though some deep embedded message in humans DNA reacts to the very word?
    I am actually fascinated by water, and one of my heroes is viktor schauberger, the water wizard, did You know that absolute pure water is the only substance that totally resists the flow of electricity?
    Electricity also fascinates Me , and just what is it??????
    Nobody can tell You.
    ENERGY is banded about as though people know what it is, but again nobody will be able to define what they are babbling about.

    Water is heavily concerned with megalithic sites, and the geology beneath the sites is easily forgotten, as it's out of sight, but dowsing doesn't rely heavily on sight, it relies on our long dormant antennae of the hands and soles of our feet.
    Kevin
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Obviously from Lancashire ?

    Post  Sunbright57 on Fri May 20, 2011 10:03 am

    Me going on about Lancashire delicasies like hotpot, Stew and hard, oh and I forgot Black pudding, was being discussed recently on a local website, and this just happened to come up on here, so I thought I'd pop it on. I suppose Yorkshire people like there food as well ie Yorkshire pudding - we have those over in Lancashire too. I wonder if there's Yorkshire hotpot ?
    cheers

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Guest on Sun May 22, 2011 2:08 am

    Sunbright57 wrote:Me going on about Lancashire delicasies like hotpot, Stew and hard, oh and I forgot Black pudding, was being discussed recently on a local website, and this just happened to come up on here, so I thought I'd pop it on. I suppose Yorkshire people like there food as well ie Yorkshire pudding - we have those over in Lancashire too. I wonder if there's Yorkshire hotpot ?
    cheers
    Yes there is a Yorkshire hot pot however the recipe is secret and must never be eaten by anyone from Lancashire!
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    mikki

    Join date : 2009-01-29
    Age : 25
    Location : West Yorkshire

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  mikki on Mon May 23, 2011 6:24 am

    muddymick wrote:
    Sunbright57 wrote:Me going on about Lancashire delicasies like hotpot, Stew and hard, oh and I forgot Black pudding, was being discussed recently on a local website, and this just happened to come up on here, so I thought I'd pop it on. I suppose Yorkshire people like there food as well ie Yorkshire pudding - we have those over in Lancashire too. I wonder if there's Yorkshire hotpot ?
    cheers
    Yes there is a Yorkshire hot pot however the recipe is secret and must never be eaten by anyone from Lancashire!

    We also have Yorkshire puddings. Although it's not a secret recipe, the best ones are made by proper Yorkshire folk.


    Mikki x
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    Sunbright57

    Join date : 2011-02-10
    Age : 60
    Location : Nelson - the one in Lancashire sorry to say!

    Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Sunbright57 on Mon May 23, 2011 10:36 am

    Oooo Arrrr, top secret hotpot and Yorkshire pudding best made by Yorkshire folk, oooo arrrrr. Sorry, I sound like Phil Harding !!!!
    affraid

    Eskdale

    Join date : 2011-06-10

    Re: Dowsing ancient sites

    Post  Eskdale on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:46 pm

    Vapour trail, I was very interested in reading your early posts, what pity that subsequent ones went off topic.
    Please can you explain what type of dowsing rods you use, and do you use different ones depending on what you are looking for?
    Cliff

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