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Archaeology, folklore & myth of Britain's pre-christian sites & heritage: stone circles, holy wells, maypoles, tombs, archaic cosmologies and human consciousness. Everyone welcome - even Southerners!


    The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

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    shiny

    Join date : 2010-04-17

    The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  shiny on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:16 am

    Hello everyone.

    I got here at last.

    I've often wondered over the years, whether a local stone could be ancient, it looks it to me, but it gets ignored by everyone. I've been looking at it lately on "Street View". These are the on-screen co-ordinates...........

    53 32 45.33N
    2 07 16.96W

    I grew up within a cock's stride of "The White Stone", but I remember it being down at road level in a sort of alcove, where the pavement ran down the hill at high level, until the slum clearances of the 1950s and 1960s. Since when that side of the road was bulldozed and rebuilt.

    It'd be nice to get someone else's opinion



    tom.

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    The Seven Old Crosses of Oldham

    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:14 am

    I know not of the 'White Stone' you speak of but:

    There is a very old map of Oldham in the 1500's reproduced in A CENTENARY OF OLDHAM, 1949, by H. Batson

    The map shoes the positions of seven ancient crosses in Oldham marking lands once owned by the Knights of St John of Jerusalem.

    You may find the map useful in finding the position of the 'White Stone' as many topographical features are shown.

    Hope this is helpfullllll

    john

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    Guest

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:38 am

    Found this on Society for Popular Astronomy site under 'OLDHAM METEORITE'


    Came across this completely by accident but I think I can answer this mystery for you. It would seem that Eric's memory has 'understandably' tricked him because the huge stone he refers to at Northmoor was WHITE not black. Indeed there was once a pub called the Whitestone Inn just down the road from where the stone still (rather sadly) sits. The pub is now a mosque and the stone now sits rather anonymously at the entrance to a run down Bangladeshi housing estate. The stone has been there as long as history records and is thought to have been a 'mere stone' (boundary stone) probably marking one extremity of the ancient Northmoor estate. As to it being a meteorite - I have no idea - my love is of local history which is how I came across this - strange thing fate isn`t it ?!

    j
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    cropredy

    Join date : 2009-02-02

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  cropredy on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:37 am

    "The pub is now a mosque"
    That would make a great title for a song, brilliant.
    Welcome shiny one.
    cropredy

    shiny

    Join date : 2010-04-17

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  shiny on Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:38 am

    Thanks for the input.......

    "The White Stone" pub was directly opposite the stone, (I used to watch bands there), until it was demolished. The building that is now a mosque was the "White Hart" lower down.

    I've got a copy of the old map of Oldham on the wall in front of me, I don't think this stone is one of the seven.

    I've never heard of an Oldham meteorite, maybe it struck and nobody noticed. Smile

    shiny

    Join date : 2010-04-17

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  shiny on Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:04 am

    There was a pic of the stone in question posted on the thread below.............. November 18th 2009



    http://www.popastro.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1918&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=oldham+meteorite&start=15

    Guest
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    MERE/BOUNDARY STONE ?

    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:05 am

    Superb pic'

    Is it a Boundary Stone as some suggest?

    john

    By the way - welcome to the site - we need more from Lancashire

    j
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    Paulus

    Join date : 2009-08-20
    Location : Yorkshire

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  Paulus on Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:31 am

    Hi Shiny!

    Welcome to the Forum. I like the sound of this 'ere White Stone, but can't find owt specific about it. The "seven crosses" mentioned earlier don't seem to have owt to to with it. A description from 1620 describes 'em thus:

    "I dyd very well knowe seaven crosses called Seaven Holy Crosses and alsoe called St. John's Crosses, to be bounds and meares at Horsedge Landes. I dyd know them all eyther broken or wholle, and doe yett knowe the places where every of them stood. At first a stone crosse stood on the edge of Greenacres Moore; the next a wooden crosse, stood at Horsedge Style; the next, a stone crosse, upon the north-east syde of the Edge, called the 'Cross under the Edge'; the next, a wooden crosse in Grymbye, called 'Grymbye Crosse'; the next, a stone crosse called 'Pighill Style Crosse'; the next, a wooden crosse in the Town End; and the last and seveanth a stone crosse, in the Moore with the rest of all the crosses, which be one from another of equal distance."

    Not much help. But this is from an old pamphlet by Samuel Andrew called Seven Holy Crosses of Oldham (James Neild: Oldham 1887) which might have further info about the White Stone if you can track a copy down. The local library p'raps? I'm intrigued.....if you find owt more, please let us know.

    All the best - Paul
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    Paulus

    Join date : 2009-08-20
    Location : Yorkshire

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  Paulus on Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:41 am

    Just found this, a short reference in Bernard Barnes' Man and the Changing Landscape (1982), at SD 9205 (nearby), describing a "vague reference to 2 stone hammers (exhibited in the 1860s) in private ownership" and found hereby. Thought to be prehistoric remains found here. A short distance west, near Chadderton Hall, was a "probable barrow site" which "yielded several relics of antiquity."

    They might not have owt to do with your White Stone, but as they're close by, thought it might be worth mentioning. Y' never know...

    Guest
    Guest

    Chadderton

    Post  Guest on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:03 pm

    RE: PAULUS/CHADDERTON - poss' barrow

    Ekwall suggests from the British(Welsh) 'cader' - "a hill fort" - the township is hilly with elevations of 500ft.

    Oldham has several place-names of British origin: Werneth & Glodwick being two.

    A Roman road passes through Oldham & the 'ham' element of the place-name suggests a Romano-British Estate (Chief Manor).

    Good hunting

    john

    shiny

    Join date : 2010-04-17

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  shiny on Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:23 pm

    It's highly unusual to find more than two or three crosses marking Hospitaler's land.



    Someone wrote of the "Seven Holy Crosses Of Oldham"............ I think it was a chap called Samuel Andrew.



    "Extreme consecration protecting the land so encompassed with a talismanic charm as potent as that of the wizard pentagram".




    Well put.

    Guest
    Guest

    STYDD, RIBCHESTER

    Post  Guest on Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:13 am

    "shiny on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:23 am. It's highly unusual to find more than two or three crosses marking Hospitaler's land."

    Not really. At Stydd near Ribchester 7 crosses mark the extent of lands the Hospitalers once held there & can still be found today - the cross bases that is.

    john

    Oldham stands above the River Roch (Rached in 13th century) that has been identified with the SE boundary of the former British Kingdom of Rheged.

    Could Oldham be the original Caput of the Hundred of Salford in pre-Conquest times? - the Domesday Hundred is divided into 2 commotes by the Roch

    A study of the pre-Conquest territorial land divisions here may prove to be a very worthwhile undertaking.

    j

    shiny

    Join date : 2010-04-17

    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

    Post  shiny on Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:53 am

    Hello Lowergate.........

    I believe that back in the day, Oldham's Horsedge Land was controlled by Whalley Abbey, who in turn were administered from the hospitaliers national HQ in Clerkenwell, London.

    Coincidentally the area of Oldham where the White stone stands, is called Clerkwell.

    At a guess I'd say that the same crew who looked after the Oldham lands also handled much closer Ribchester, and had standardised their boundary markings.


    Up until the municipal boundary changes of the 1970s, there were the towns of Royton and Chadderton separating Oldham from Rochdale, including a hill known as the Summit which drains into the Roche on the Rochdale side, and the River Irk on the Royton, (Oldham) side.


    But there again, I fancy living in a place called Caput.

    Laughing

    Guest
    Guest

    BEEN A LOOKIN' AT OLD MAPS

    Post  Guest on Sat May 01, 2010 1:04 pm

    Bury was the Caput of pre-Conquest Salford Hundred - confirmed

    Oldham I suspect was a Reeves Manor in the Eastern Commote - that may owe its origins to the Romano-British period.

    If you wish to study this 'Dark Age' period a good start is :

    J E W Wallis A HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN BLACKBURNSHIRE

    R B Smith BLACKBURNSHIRE - Leicester University Occasional Papers No. 15, 1961

    G R J Jones EARLY TERRITORIAL ORGANIZATION IN GWYNEDD AND ELMET, Northern History, Vol.10, 1975


    These are the only works to date that have attempted to look at the Economic & Political structure in the North of England in pre-Conquest times that have there origins in the late Roman period.

    Hope I don't bore you with all this

    Best regards

    john

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    Re: The White Stone, Chadderton Way, Oldham...................

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